Legislature(2003 - 2004)
03/13/2003 03:03 PM House HES
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ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES
STANDING COMMITTEE
March 13, 2003
3:03 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Peggy Wilson, Chair
Representative Carl Gatto, Vice Chair
Representative Cheryll Heinze
Representative Paul Seaton
Representative Kelly Wolf
Representative Sharon Cissna
Representative Mary Kapsner
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 146
"An Act repealing the termination date of certain provisions
that require the reporting of social security numbers and
automated data matching with financial institutions for child
support enforcement purposes; and providing for an effective
date."
- MOVED CSHB 146(HES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL NO. 166
"An Act relating to adoptions that include a subsidy payment by
the state; eliminating annual review of the subsidy paid by the
state after adoption of a hard-to-place child has occurred; and
providing for an effective date."
- MOVED HB 166 OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL NO. 167
"An Act relating to grants for alcoholism and drug abuse
programs; and providing for an effective date."
- SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 146
SHORT TITLE:CHILD SUPPORT/SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(s) MCGUIRE
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
03/04/03 0377 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME -
REFERRALS
03/04/03 0377 (H) HES
03/13/03 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HB 166
SHORT TITLE:ELIMINATE REVIEW OF ADOPTION SUBSIDIES
SPONSOR(S): RLS BY REQUEST OF THE GOVERNOR
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
03/05/03 0438 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME -
REFERRALS
03/05/03 0438 (H) HES, FIN
03/05/03 0438 (H) FN1: (HSS)
03/05/03 0438 (H) GOVERNOR'S TRANSMITTAL LETTER
03/13/03 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE LESIL McGUIRE
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Spoke as the sponsor of HB 146.
MARY McDOWELL, Commissioner
Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission (CFEC)
Alaska Department of Fish & Game (ADF&G)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Discussed the history of AS 16.05 in
relation to CSHB 146, Version H.
JOANNE GIBBENS, Program Administrator
Division of Family & Youth Services
Department of Health & Social Services
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented HB 166.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 03-25, SIDE A
Number 0001
CHAIR PEGGY WILSON called the House Health, Education and Social
Services Standing Committee meeting to order at 3:03 p.m.
Representatives Wilson, Gatto, Wolf, Seaton, and Cissna were
present at the call to order. Representatives Heinze and
Kapsner arrived as the meeting was in progress.
HB 146-CHILD SUPPORT/SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS
CHAIR WILSON announced that the first order of business would be
HOUSE BILL NO. 146, "An Act repealing the termination date of
certain provisions that require the reporting of social security
numbers and automated data matching with financial institutions
for child support enforcement purposes; and providing for an
effective date."
CHAIR WILSON informed the committee that there is a proposed
committee substitute (CS) [labeled 23-LS0705\H, Lauterbach,
3/13/03]. She said if there were no objections, the proposed CS
would be before the committee. [No objections were stated.]
Number 0155
REPRESENTATIVE LESIL McGUIRE, Alaska State Legislature, sponsor,
informed the committee that HB 146 eliminates a policy enacted
by the legislature some years ago. She noted the importance of
doing this in a timely manner due to the large amount of federal
funding in danger of being lost [by the child support
enforcement program and related programs] if this measure isn't
passed.
REPRESENTATIVE McGUIRE said the only substantive portion in
which one could argue there is a policy change is in the
proposed CS. The original legislation from years ago failed to
allow for nonresident people working in Alaska to be included,
which she believed to be an oversight. Representative McGuire
noted that she has been working with the Limited Entry
Commission and others. She also noted that United Fishermen of
Alaska (UFA) endorses this legislation. She offered her belief
that everyone believes it is good to protect Alaska's children
and to obtain the resources to which the children are entitled.
REPRESENTATIVE McGUIRE acknowledged the controversy surrounding
[the use of social security numbers for identification].
Although she didn't disagree that social security numbers began
as a means to a program and now have become a personal
identification number, she encouraged the committee to look
beyond such arguments. Today, social security numbers are used
as personal identification numbers and for tracking purposes.
She emphasized the importance of the child support enforcement
program to be able to find parents that aren't paying the debts
necessary to support their children. Having employers report
social security numbers so that the child support enforcement
program can directly track the wages of earnings of these
individuals is the most effective way to accomplish [support of
children], she suggested.
REPRESENTATIVE McGUIRE referred to the sponsor statement in the
committee packet and said HB 146 relates to federal money
obtained through a block grant under the federal Temporary
Assistance to Needy Families (TANF) program. In 1996 the
federal welfare reform legislation was enacted and the policy
began at the federal level to reduce dependence on welfare
programs. The federal Act imposed numerous requirements for
state child enforcement programs. Thus financial participation
in Alaska's child support enforcement program and the Alaska
Temporary Assistance Program (ATAP) depends upon compliance with
these federal requirements. In 1997 and 1998, [state] laws
enacted to meet those federal requirements included a repealer
of July 1, 2003. Without action this legislative session,
therefore, this policy will disappear and much will be lost.
Number 0490
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO highlighted that this would cover residents
and nonresidents alike. He felt it would be clearer if the word
"resident" was replaced with the word "nonresident" on page 1,
line 7 of Version H. Therefore, on page 1, line 7, the sentence
would refer to nonresidents. He also suggested changing line 9
such that it would specify that the resident applying for a
resident commercial fishing license would provide the person's
social security number in addition to the proof of residence.
REPRESENTATIVE McGUIRE responded that she didn't disagree that
subsection (b) is bifurcated. However, she noted a possible
constitutional concern: the need to take care when
distinguishing between residents and nonresidents in law because
there are all types of issues that come into play, such as equal
protection and the commerce clause. Therefore, she wanted to be
clear that there is no distinction between a resident and
nonresident but rather that an individual applying for a
commercial fishing license must provide a social security
number. Representative McGuire said she'd be uncomfortable
changing that, although she noted her willingness to have the
bill held in order to speak with the drafter. However, she
emphasized that she believes it's clear that the first sentence
in subsection (b) applies to all people who apply for a
commercial fishing license, while the second portion applies to
residents only.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said he sees this legislation from the
point of view of the person who would be affected, rather than
the drafter. Therefore, he prefers language so clear that a
third-grade student could understand it. He noted that he is
uncomfortable [with the language as is].
Number 0692
REPRESENTATIVE McGUIRE opined that inserting "nonresident" on
line 7 would be problematic because residents also need to be
included. She mentioned the notion outlined in lines 7-8 and
indicated it would be reiterated in the second [sentence of
subsection (b)]; she opined that this would be superfluous.
CHAIR WILSON echoed Representative McGuire's statements
regarding the use of "nonresident" in that it may raise a flag.
She said she believes [the existing language] is best.
Number 0780
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO suggested there are various types of
residencies in this state: someone can be a permanent fund
dividend resident, a voting resident, and a fish and game
resident, for example. "My concern is we would also like to add
another line, maybe, identifying for the purposes of fishing
licenses," he said. Representative Gatto reiterated his
discomfort and desire for changes.
REPRESENTATIVE McGUIRE explained that when one looks at a
resident versus a nonresident, care must be taken to look to a
benefit that both equally receive. She explained:
In this particular instance, what we're saying is that
if you apply for a commercial fishing license, then
you're going to be required to provide the person's
social security numbers. So it's the action and it's
the benefit that you're receiving that we were
referring to as opposed to setting out being a
resident or nonresident you somehow have a higher or
lesser burden.
Number 0882
MARY McDOWELL, Commissioner, Commercial Fisheries Entry
Commission (CFEC), Alaska Department of Fish & Game (ADF&G),
suggested this could probably be clarified by reviewing the
origin of the language [in Version H]. She noted that AS 16.05
discusses the licensing of commercial fishermen. In 1997, the
legislature was looking for a place to insert language
clarifying that those who apply for all types of commercial
fishing licenses shall provide their social security numbers.
The drafter opted to place the aforementioned in [AS
16.054.80(b)], which was originally meant to provide ADF&G and
[CFEC] the ability to ask someone about residency for the
purpose of obtaining the cheaper resident license.
MS. McDOWELL said the additional requirement to provide the
social security number was inserted by the drafter in this
section that only spoke to residents; this was a drafting error
because the legislative history clearly shows that the
legislature wanted all applicants for commercial fishing
licenses to provide a social security number. Referring to
[Version H, subsection (b)], she mentioned retaining the ability
that anyone applying for a fishing license shall provide proof
of residency in order to receive the resident rate, while
additionally specifying that all applicants shall provide a
social security number for a fishing license.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said he sees mistakes and thus expressed
the need for more time to pen an amendment.
MS. McDOWELL explained that HB 146 [Version 23-LS0705\D] took
all the sections inserted in 1997 and rolled them forward.
However, it was realized that the original drafting was in
error. Rather than roll forward mistakenly drafted language,
the proposal is to fix it as it is rolled forward.
Number 1123
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO stressed that HB 146 was originally
legislation to remove a sunset date. However, Version H is more
than the removal of a sunset date and requires people to act or
produce something. He reiterated the desire to clean it up so
it's better written. He asked if there is some deadline that
has to be met.
CHAIR WILSON informed the committee that there is a backlog of
legislation for this committee. She announced that
Representative Gatto could formulate an amendment while the
committee moved on to the next piece of legislation; otherwise,
she would follow the wish of the committee. Chair Wilson noted
that several departments have been involved with the proposed CS
and thus she said she felt fairly comfortable with it.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO advised the chair that he would attempt to
formulate an amendment.
CHAIR WILSON temporarily suspended the hearing on HB 146.
HB 166-ELIMINATE REVIEW OF ADOPTION SUBSIDIES
Number 1222
CHAIR WILSON announced that the next order of business would be
HOUSE BILL NO. 166, "An Act relating to adoptions that include a
subsidy payment by the state; eliminating annual review of the
subsidy paid by the state after adoption of a hard-to-place
child has occurred; and providing for an effective date."
Number 1232
JOANNE GIBBENS, Program Administrator, Division of Family &
Youth Services (DFYS), Department of Health & Social Services
(DHSS), explained that current statute requires an annual review
of all adoption and guardianship subsidies in order to determine
the continuing need for a subsidy and to review the amount.
Originally designed as a cost-saving measure, it hasn't proven
to be one. Therefore, DHSS has proposed eliminating the
requirement for an annual review. She noted that committee
packets should include a fiscal note reflecting the savings
gained by eliminating this annual review.
MS. GIBBENS pointed out that this doesn't mean adoptive parents
or guardians lose the right to have their subsidies reviewed.
Federal law requires that no subsidy amount may be decreased
without the concurrence of the parents. Furthermore, there is
an allowance that gives every adoptive parent or guardian the
ability to request a review of the subsidy amount at any time.
Ms. Gibbens related that the department anticipates there will
be a more immediate response to requests from adoptive parents
or guardians to have their subsidy amounts reviewed.
CHAIR WILSON surmised that elimination of this annual review in
no way takes away the due process for anyone.
MS. GIBBENS replied that is correct.
Number 1370
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA asked if other types of oversight or
checking-in exist for adoptive parents.
MS. GIBBENS answered that [the department] is developing post-
adoptive services to assist adoptive parents in their
adjustment. With some federal dollars, the [department] should
be able to provide more [post-adoptive] services in the coming
year. Once a family adopts a child, the family has no
responsibility in terms of the state and is viewed as any other
parent.
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA noted that adoptions aren't necessarily
permanent, although that is the desire. She asked whether [the
annual review] has any value in that way.
MS. GIBBENS replied that she didn't think so. She explained
that sometimes, once an adopted child has reached adolescence,
the child demonstrates a new need for additional mental health
care or other items covered in the subsidy. In those cases, the
adoptive parents contact the division and request assistance to
provide additional services; thus the subsidy is reviewed [and
there is a determination with regard to the request].
Number 1502
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON moved to report HB 166 out of committee
with individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal
note. There being no objection, HB 166 was reported from the
House Health, Education and Social Services Standing Committee.
HB 146-CHILD SUPPORT/SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS
Number 1557
CHAIR WILSON returned attention to HOUSE BILL NO. 146, "An Act
repealing the termination date of certain provisions that
require the reporting of social security numbers and automated
data matching with financial institutions for child support
enforcement purposes; and providing for an effective date."
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked if the bill would make social
security numbers available to the public.
MARY McDOWELL, Commissioner, Commercial Fisheries Entry
Commission (CFEC), Alaska Department of Fish & Game (ADF&G),
replied that the bill doesn't change the current situation; CFEC
has always asked for social security numbers on permit
applications, and upon request, those numbers are made available
to the Child Support Enforcement Division (CSED) so it can
garnish part of a fish ticket. In further response, she said
this information absolutely wouldn't be accessible on the
Internet.
Number 1686
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF referred to the "Child Support Enforcement
2003 'Sunset' Summary" in the committee packet and asked if CSED
was in favor of waiving federal requirements for social security
numbers on fishing and hunting licenses.
MS. McDOWELL said CSED could best answered that question; she
added that sport fishing and hunting licenses were treated
differently than this sort of licensing.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO offered Amendment 1, which read [original
punctuation provided]:
Line 7(b) A person applying for a non-resident
Line 9 after shall insert "provide the person's
S/S# and
Line 10 strike [that the department requires by
regulation]
insert [as required by regulation.]
Line 13 strike [a]
insert "the"
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO explained that if reference was made to a
nonresident, then, similarly, reference should be made to a
resident. Conversely, if reference was made to a resident, then
a correlative reference should be made to a nonresident. In
this way, 100 percent of the people would be covered. He said
inserting "nonresident" in 7(b) identifies the group of people
involved with the regulation pertaining to commercial fishing
licenses and social security numbers.
CHAIR WILSON commented that the reference pertained to everyone,
not just nonresidents.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO concurred, and said that was why, in line
9, he inserted "social security number" - to make it clear that
each line could stand on its own. He said each line deals
entirely with the regulation; he suggested that the amendment
simplifies rather than complicates the bill's language.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO continued that in line 10, it was more
straightforward to say, "as required by regulation" rather than
"that the department requires by regulation." He said making
this more general does not restrict it to any one department.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO concluded his explanation by saying that in
line 13, the specific social security number that is wanted is
the one provided by the applicant, rather than "a" social
security number; therefore, he suggested striking "a" and
inserting "the." He said Amendment 1 does not change the intent
of the bill, but clarifies the language so it is somewhat easier
to understand than the previously [provided] language.
CHAIR WILSON objected for purposes of discussion. She noted
that John Mallonee from CSED and Diane Wendlandt from the
Department of Law were on teleconference to answer questions.
Number 1890
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked, in reference to line 7, whether
the intent was to add or to delete language.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO replied that the word "resident" was
already deleted, and he was not changing that deletion. He said
adding "nonresident" would distinguish it from the following
line, which speaks to residents. In this way, each line would
stand on its own merit. If amended line 7(b) would read, "A
person applying for a nonresident commercial fishing license
under this section shall provide the person's social security
number."
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA said she values the expertise of
Legislative Legal and Research Services, and prefers not to
amend the language.
CHAIR WILSON said she agreed.
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF indicated that he does not want to second-
guess Legislative Legal and Research Services. In reference to
line 7, he said defining "nonresident" had the potential to open
up a "can of worms."
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO suggested that changing the language in
line 13 to "the" would offer further clarification.
Number 2055
A roll call vote was taken. Representative Gatto voted in favor
of Amendment 1. Representatives Wolf, Heinze, Seaton, Cissna,
Kapsner, and Wilson voted against it. Therefore, Amendment 1
failed by a vote of 1-6.
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER moved to report CSHB 146, Version 23-
LS0705\H, Lauterbach, 3/13/03, out of committee with individual
recommendations and the accompanying fiscal note. There being
no objection, CSHB 146(HES) was reported from the House Health,
Education and Social Services Standing Committee.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Health, Education and Social Services Standing Committee meeting
was adjourned at approximately 3:56 p.m.
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